Comments on: bai juyi: bemoaning my old age (1) http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#utm_source=feed&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=feed disoriented in the orient Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:18:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Kun http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-786 Kun Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:20:38 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-786 I agree with zhwj on the meaning of 会，I found this in my ＜＜学生古汉语词典＞＞: ＂会心，领悟别人意图．＂　Put 天地　in between 会心, it could still mean the same. As to 天地心, could it be the idea of life? I agree with zhwj on the meaning of 会，I found this in my ＜＜学生古汉语词典＞＞: ＂会心，领悟别人意图．＂　Put 天地　in between 会心, it could still mean the same. As to 天地心, could it be the idea of life?

]]> By: zhwj http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-785 zhwj Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:58:54 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-785 The Daoist interpretation does seem to go right along with the subject of old age, although I'd be a little wary about interpreting Tang poetry using wuxia fiction as a reference. That doesn't mean the interpretation is wrong. In fact, taking the 易经 "復" as representing 天地之心, we can draw a connection to the working of the 道 through Laozi (40): 反者道之动. In other words, if you really understood the root of heaven and earth, you'd understand returning [change/repetition/regeneration] and live forever. You're right about the entry in《古代汉语常用字字典》 lacking something; you'd expect it to at least have a 后起意义 note there for something after 魏晋. The Daoist interpretation does seem to go right along with the subject of old age, although I’d be a little wary about interpreting Tang poetry using wuxia fiction as a reference. That doesn’t mean the interpretation is wrong. In fact, taking the 易经 “復” as representing 天地之心, we can draw a connection to the working of the 道 through Laozi (40): 反者道之动. In other words, if you really understood the root of heaven and earth, you’d understand returning [change/repetition/regeneration] and live forever.
You’re right about the entry in《古代汉语常用字字典》 lacking something; you’d expect it to at least have a 后起意义 note there for something after 魏晋.

]]> By: Matt Waters http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-784 Matt Waters Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:34:25 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-784 Just a wild guess here, but could that first one you mention- 谁会天地心- be a reference to the emperor? The emperor was supposed to be kind of the interface between heaven and earth,and in this sense he could have a heart of both heaven and earth. It might also make sense in that the emperor would get the best medical treatment (perhaps using methods only known to a select few),etc. and has a better chance to live for a long time. Just a wild guess here, but could that first one you mention- 谁会天地心- be a reference to the emperor? The emperor was supposed to be kind of the interface between heaven and earth,and in this sense he could have a heart of both heaven and earth. It might also make sense in that the emperor would get the best medical treatment (perhaps using methods only known to a select few),etc. and has a better chance to live for a long time.

]]> By: Brendan http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-783 Brendan Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:39:38 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-783 Oli - It looks to me like 谁 is being used here to mean "someone," but I could be wrong there. zhwj - I just ran a search on "天地心" and found the sentence '道乃天地心.' It's in a wuxia novel, so I don't know how reliable that is, but it seems to make sense in this context. As for 会 - I was going by what my 古代汉语常用字字典 had to say. "Understanding the Dao" is certainly more coherent than "uniting heaven, earth, and mind." I'm still not sure about this line, though... Oli – It looks to me like 谁 is being used here to mean “someone,” but I could be wrong there.

zhwj – I just ran a search on “天地心” and found the sentence ‘道乃天地心.’ It’s in a wuxia novel, so I don’t know how reliable that is, but it seems to make sense in this context. As for 会 – I was going by what my 古代汉语常用字字典 had to say. “Understanding the Dao” is certainly more coherent than “uniting heaven, earth, and mind.” I’m still not sure about this line, though…

]]> By: oli http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-782 oli Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:48:00 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-782 oops, yeah.. what he said. oops, yeah.. what he said.

]]> By: oli http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-781 oli Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:44:02 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-781 谁会天地心，千龄与龟鹤. Could this be 'Who can reconcile his heart with the ways of the world? Only thousand year old tortoises and cranes' I dont think the use of 会 is a problem. You can certainly have 会意, to understand, in classical chinese. Is a 天地心 some daoist state of mind? Also, about 谁; isnt the question-answer phrasing possible? 谁会天地心，千龄与龟鹤.
Could this be
‘Who can reconcile his heart with the ways of the world? Only thousand year old tortoises and cranes’

I dont think the use of 会 is a problem. You can certainly have 会意, to understand, in classical chinese. Is a 天地心 some daoist state of mind?
Also, about 谁; isnt the question-answer phrasing possible?

]]> By: zhwj http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-780 zhwj Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:19:09 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-780 So I got out of the habit of checking your page, and suddenly there's a whack of translations up. An enjoyable addition to my morning routine.     About your first problem line: Why not take 天地心 as 天地之心 rather than three separate units? <a href="http://www.guoxue.com/jinbu/13jing/liji/lijj009.htm" rel="nofollow">《礼记·礼运》</a> has the line 人者，天地之心也, while <a href="http://www.harvard-yenching.net/ruxue/zhuzuo/zhouyi/zhouyi24.html" rel="nofollow">《易经·復卦》</a> (Hex. 24 "Returning") has 復其見天地之心乎. I'd say the second reference might be applicable here; <a href="http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/~hkshp/cclassic/weijin/wangbi1.htm" rel="nofollow">王弼</a> has:<blockquote>復者，反本之謂也。天地以本為心者也。凡動息則靜，靜非對 動者也。語息則默，默非對語者也。然則天地雖大，富有萬物，雷動風行，運化萬變，寂然至無，是其本矣。故動息地中，乃天地之心見也。若其以有為心，則異類未獲具存矣。 </blockquote>Especially the last line there.     For 会 meaning 懂得, see 池畔二首 in your 白居易集. So I got out of the habit of checking your page, and suddenly there’s a whack of translations up. An enjoyable addition to my morning routine.

    About your first problem line: Why not take 天地心 as 天地之心 rather than three separate units? 《礼记·礼运》 has the line 人者，天地之心也, while 《易经·復卦》 (Hex. 24 “Returning”) has 復其見天地之心乎. I’d say the second reference might be applicable here; 王弼 has:

復者，反本之謂也。天地以本為心者也。凡動息則靜，靜非對
動者也。語息則默，默非對語者也。然則天地雖大，富有萬物，雷動風行，運化萬變，寂然至無，是其本矣。故動息地中，乃天地之心見也。若其以有為心，則異類未獲具存矣。

Especially the last line there.

    For 会 meaning 懂得, see 池畔二首 in your 白居易集.

]]> By: Brendan http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-779 Brendan Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:03:34 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-779 (Also, I'm basically uncreative, and iambic pentameter was the first thing that came to mind.) (Also, I’m basically uncreative, and iambic pentameter was the first thing that came to mind.)

]]> By: Brendan http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-778 Brendan Tue, 23 Nov 2004 04:58:31 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-778 The original was written in five-character verse, so iambic pentameter kind of makes sense. Mostly, though, iambic pentameter is a more natural form for English verse to take. (This reminds me; I need to pick up my copy of John Hollander's <i>Rhyme's Reason</i> from my parents' house.) The original was written in five-character verse, so iambic pentameter kind of makes sense. Mostly, though, iambic pentameter is a more natural form for English verse to take. (This reminds me; I need to pick up my copy of John Hollander’s Rhyme’s Reason from my parents’ house.)

]]> By: richard http://bokane.org/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/comment-page-1/#comment-777 richard Tue, 23 Nov 2004 04:56:03 +0000 http://bokane.org/newblog/2004/11/22/bai-juyi-bemoaning-my-old-age-1/#comment-777 Beautiful writing. Were the Chinese verses written in a form resembling iambic pentameter, or did you choose that metre for another reason? Beautiful writing. Were the Chinese verses written in a form resembling iambic pentameter, or did you choose that metre for another reason?

]]>